is jesus real?

General
41

It’s about time I got back into this.

To make a rebuttal here, if God wasn’t created, then what created the universe? But I’m not going to settle for the “God has to exist” motiff, so here’s my fallable interpretation:

God is an entity which we know nothing about. It is probably so distant from our physical world that we have no idea how to interpret it. Religon calls it “One” and we make it “Omniscent” and “We were in it’s image”. Aethiests say “There is none” and “There’s no proof”. Again, Christians counter it with “you need faith”. But what do I believe? I believe that this petty squabbling is what got us here in the first place. If Humans lived in a paradise because we found favor with that entity, then we must have been stupid and ignorant to be rejected from it’s care. We were expelled from this “Eden” and subjected to this world where we die, and death seems so foreign to us that we fear it. I can think of only two ways why we exist in this universe:

  1. It’s a lesson. We contantly try to better ourselves until we can get back in favor with the “whatever it is”, and until that day we will continue to be subjugated by this world’s temptations and sufferings (which are “the Devil’s” attempts to thwart our effort. For this, God sent Jesus as a reminder). In essence, this is like the theory of Nirvana except we are humans all the time.
  2. We are in Hell. The “entity” was not pleased with our first attepted so he damned us here forever. This is Hell, where pain and suffering run rampant, where the minds of men are warped and contorted. Of course, we don’t live in this suffering forever, so eternal damnation through this seems impossible (unless we are reborn, in which case we are helpless).

I believe much in the first choice. Humanity has to grow up. If we don’t, it will take that much longer to get back to where we started. After that, no human can tell.

42

This topic is getting dangerously close to being locked. Redhalberd, try to sound less arrogant and forceful, others, calm down a little.

Edit:

But if he’s all-powerful, wouldn’t Adam/Eve not eaten the apple, wouldn’t we humans all get along together since we’re His creations, wouldn’t he not have made the devil, couldn’t he just magically fix the universe, reverse all his mistakes/not even make any mistakes, etc.? That’s the biggest problem I’ve had with the idea of an omnipotent/omnicient God so far. Anybody feel like explaining this to me, without just the typical “God has his reasons” kind of response?

Not necessarily. I don’t want to sound too pompous here, but if you can’t see, hear, feel, taste, or smell something, or just somehow know of that thing’s existence, there’s no reason to prove that it isn’t there. As an example, what if I said that there is a miniature, floating Nintendo DS Lite inside everybody, but it is completely undetectable even with the most advanced of our technology. Now, do I have to prove this to be true, or do you have to prove this to be false? Neither side can, but since there’s no evidence, it would be best to say that none of us are born with DS Lites inside of us until there is evidence to support it. At least that’s the way I see things. I suppose it could be considered subjective logic in this case.

43

What are you talking about?? I never called anyone dumb (not that i recall). I admit, ive been accused of that quite offten lately. But i have a very distinct way of arguing, and i dont know how it comes off. But i dont recall directly calling anyone stupid, nor insulting their beleifs. However, i have a pet peeve about proving my point. I naturally sound arrogant and forceful, it’s been my nature since 3rd grade (i got put in a special elite class), and since then, ive always been very pushing in arguments. I dont know how i sound until i reread my posts, and im sorry ive offended you all.

And i didnt bother correcting hypocrite to save time (i was aware of it).

[EDIT] And about israel, the US wouldnt destroy israel, they stupidly created it. Im talking about every single country surrounding israel. Many of them have nuclear weapons, and while they dont have the gutts to do it yet, if hesbollah is forced to retreat to Syria or Iran, Israel will have no choice but to attack them. And they have nuclear weapons. That’s why “i think” (needed to add that) that it’s only a matter of time before israel is destroyed.

[EDIT]

Oh, and the analogy with the DS lite, that was the common sense i was reffering too. Subjective logic, ill remember that.

44

Hey you know, Troid’s right, since the begining of the topic I have heard nothing but, ‘Fuck god’ or, ‘fuck jesus’ or that stupid stuff. Please, this is a topic about an argument and shouldn’t be insulting other’s religions…

The way I see it, there is no god. Our physical world was created from atoms and dust clouds that were already there. We humans were created from bacteria and the evolutions of simple organisms throughout time, and I have proof of this: the scientists have proof that the earth has been existing since like 4billion years ago, that is proof that we didn’t just go poof on a world and the rest of animals and stuff went poof and we all existed and now we are here.

Basically, had it not been for people who wanted to learn more, or had interest in the night skys, or knew there was something outside our own world, we wouldn’t be here today… chances are christianity and other same-like religions would have downgraded the earth’s technology… we wouldn’t know that those points of light are highly massive objects that contain a physical world inside them and produce mass amounts of Hydrogen in order to co-exist… we wouldn’t know know that we use a part in our brain, and we wouldnt know all that stuff having to do with science and technology.

So lets think for a while, all the time, everywhere there are people who are gifted and think outside the box. Now, go back to the time of Galileo if he wouldn’t have existed would the basic idea of the telescope exist? And most important would it not been for him that we started thinking the earth not being the center of the universe? well because normally this was discovered after his death, now it common sense that this person obiously heard this somewhere and caught an interest in it and started studying it till he finally found the answer.
(moving on)

Now, for those people who think, ‘oh the bible! it’s tells us all’ and you tell them, ‘it’s just a book not everything there is real’ then they try to counter with, ‘so? That science book is a book, don’t belive it’ see the thing is, in this example you are comparing probably a book that was made 5years ago and a book that was written 2000years ago… or was it!!? Yeah thats right, I belive the bible is updated everyday! and most of the stuff found on the bible isin’t very hard to figure out, I mean come on… they KNEW the babylons were gonna fall right? wrong! They only knew a great enpire would fall, but this is common sense, back in the day there was war everywhere and it was common sense that there was going to be An empire… these people all base stuff on current events, they are clever and know whats going on. Proof: there is a war right now between Lebanon, and Israel, what do I say? Nuclear war. Lets wait and find out to see if I am correct maybe people will think I am a prophet or something.

‘Hell’ is just based on stuff to scare people. The priests used hell to scare people into their religion, why do you think they pass that plate around? Here is an example:

sound familiar? I certainly think it does, I have seen and heard this many times.
(Sorry for throwing all this stuff at random and jumping from the year 2005 to 2000BCE and then 1500AD <.<)

well thats all I have to say for now, you can’t break me ;p, you can however try

:wink:

45

In that case, subjective means it’s been modified by my bias. Meaning it’s bent logic based on my opinions. I was just saying that it could probably be considered that, since that’s just my way of viewing it, and others probably disagree.

46

okay… i agree on most of that until the point it gets to “eternal suffering in hell”

this is untrue… atleast, when god and satan have a big war (who knows when this happens, but it WILL according to the book of Revelations) who do you think will win? god… when he does, all the souls in “hell” are completely obliterated, or so i believe (and have heard)

47

stop talking about a war between god and the devil, nothing is gonna happen… if indeed the human race DOES suffer, I rather see humans suffer than live in peace, the way I see it humans don’t deserve to live or be free, greedyness will drive this world to a nuclear war, religion will cause destruction.

48

Well lets just see if time run out and then you find out the hard way, God is real so is Jesus and why do we have Christmas for, was it just a waste of time to get out of school for 3 weeks for it. And why do you think that the Bible is just bunch of lies and why do they made it for just to waste resources. Goldleader right about that and maybe others and I hope theres not nuclear war.

Evolution: how is it real do you see any animal change right in front of your eyes, ( or do you see any human that can live under water without air )and if we did evolve from Monkeys whould the monkeys population be down are gone.

Someone lock this please before it gets ugly or something.

49

The usual arguments against it. This demonstrates a lack of understaning of how it even works. Don’t argue against something without at least understanding it or doing some research. I’ll give you a description about the basic idea of natural selection (I find that term a little overused and cheesy, but I’ll use it anyway), and then you may argue.

Creatures do change, just not in the way you think. Every so often (very rarely in normal cells), there is a mutation in the DNA–The DNA of a new cell is suddenly different than it was before, but just slightly. One tiny gene is different.

There are three main ways the mutation can go now: It can be advantageous, it can make almost no noticeable difference, or it can be harmful. If it’s harmful, that strain will die off right away. The chances of it surviving are slimmer than the rest. If it makes no noticeable difference, then, well, nothing changes. If it’s advantageous, the chances of the animal’s (or cell’s or whatever) survival is greater than the others, and over time its mutation will take over the population. Now it’s disadvantageous to not have that gene type.

The mutations are so small, though, that there is usually hardly a difference anyway. It’s not like one day a monkey magically gave birth to a human. This doesn’t cancel out natural selection completely, though, just slows it down more.

This is a pattern that works. It’s been done in computer programs, I’ve even done it in computer programs (though I have nowhere to host an example at the moment, I could go searching if you really want to see it, but it comes with a large description and lots of code to try to understand). It doesn’t matter what history you believe life has, we are evolving still. Not individually evolving this way, as stated, but as a whole species we are, DNA-wise at least.

Keep in mind that that description hardly does it justice, but that’s the basic idea. Also keep in mind that I’m just saying it’s the pattern that works. Just the pattern of this selection, not necessarily evolution (though it’s what I believe to be true as well).

And about the monkeys still being around, that’s because we didn’t evolve from monkeys. It’s as simple as that >_>

Okay, now you may argue against it. It’s just before you were showing that you didn’t know the first thing about it or were just trying to mock it with sarcastic, exaggerated comments.

50

ahh… evolution… i really just wanna touch bases with you guys on this subject and my beliefs of it… also, im not a very long winded guy, so i’ll keep it short.

although “darwinism” may be the most believed right now, there is actually no proof of this being true… why do i say this, you ask? well, just think about it. if the theory of evolution was true, wouldnt we be finding fossles every which way that show half-transformed things, like a half shark-half alligator, etc? Oh wait, you say you’ve never seen a half shark-half alligator fossil before? thats strange, because acording to evolution, there MUST be a fossil SOMEWHERE that shows a half transformed thing. but guess what… there ISNT… there ISNT, so you cant say “there is evidence that evolution is true”, etc.

IMO (in my opinion, just so you dont get confused), darwinism is just a pack of lies… but, of course, thats my opinion, so you can believe all you want to believe, but dont expect me to believe it.

51

I don’t believe in evolution, now why don’t we lock this since its going against some peoples beliefs, Ideas, Hope and etc. (like mine)

52

Thanks troid for clearing things up, it helps(<.<). Also here is another example of evolution, when you get Chicken Pox you will NEVER get it again, your body builds Anti-Biotics to fight it, sure the disease might get to your body, but thats as far as it goes.

again, if you don’t know anything don’t bother to argue, Hairy(omg that soudns wrong)stuff on science is based on facts and things you discover, you don’t jsut make a theory and expect it to be true, thats why there is the, ‘scientific method’ ‘darwinism’ or his theories on Natural Selection isin’t a pack of lies. It is based on what HE studied, and yet again if you don’t know things don’t argue…

He visited three island with different ecosystems and here he examinded three different birds and noticed that each one of their beaks were made specifically for that enviroment. Now that we got that cleared up moving on.
/* Comment
(People like troid, and morton are the reason I still exist here… people who relate to me are the reason I still want to find truth, otherwise I would have killed myself long ago) */

EDIT: wotw, unfortunatly this is good for us, it helps us build for the strong, thats why it is called an, ‘argument’ it’s ment for Educational Arguments only if you can’t do that there is no point in arguing…

also another reason this is thought is because people interpret other ppl’s text differently, I am liking this argument, because I know no one here is fighting it’s just all of us sharing our belifes…

53

Well I clam down, and if you believe in God is real or not than thats your beleifs not mine.

54

Exactly! See heres the thing, I don’t belvie in this stuff but I respect I am not gonna go in a church and burn it, I am not gonna grab a cross and break it… If some preist or person comes telling me to join god or something I will however take action(not like physically or something, jsut say a thing or two).

I am glad you understand wotw :slight_smile:

55

God has his reasons–but I won’t give you a typical response.

It is the very existence of evil that enables us to love God. If there was no evil, people would be forced to love God. And that’s not love.

56

Well, we didn’t actually start this on evolution, but I guess I can attatch this to my previous response:

I believe that evolution is real, normal, and is an embodiment of our “Bettering ourselves”. Think about it: Earlier versions of man had very small cranial cavaties, thus it is very reasonable to assume that their brains were much smaller and less complex then they are now in our current bodies. With a more complex brain comes more understanding, and with that comes improvement. This means that eventually humanity will become so advanced and knowledgable that we will overcome our petty squabbles and differences and finally get back into favor with the “entity”. If humanity can survive long enough and learn from it’s mistakes, then it will happen.

And to those of you who think that technology is evil and that’s what got us here, that’s a very pointless argument. Technology comes along with progress: If something can be invented by a higher mind then it will be. Essentially, as we get smarter, our goals and ideals will change accordingly. Unfortunately our society today places little value on life, respect, and good intentions. If you notice, when people ignore these important values bad things happen. How about the Iraq war right now? It’s exactly what I’m talking about. We went in there for our gain, not the Iraqi’s. Selfishness is just one of the many “vices” we have to overcome, so if the church preaches against that then it’s still ok in my book (that’s my tie-in with being Christian: I’m one because it teaches morals, even if the Church has immoral people in it).

I’d honestly like to see what you people think of this.

57

A meteor come and wipe us out?! really when the last Super Vocano erupted we survive that not unlese the meteor blow the planet up which I don’t think that will happen anyway in 2030 how do Scientist know do they have a time machine of sometype its just a prediction like weather man predicting the weather sometimes there wrong and sometime there right.

I done some studing about the Super Vocanoes one is Yellowstone National park.

58

Wait a second, WOTW, who are you responding to? I don’t see any talk of meteors killing us all (even though a meteor will strike Earth or has struck Earth at sometime in the past, if something can happen, it will.)

59

Then you don’t have to post in it, or even look at it. I’m trying my best to keep it from turning into a flamewar while still trying to participate in discussion. If it gets hard enough to do so or any flames erupt, I’ll lock it.

…
And I’m really confused about your post, Mason. I mean, I understand the logic behind that, but I don’t see how loving God has anything to do with this. I mean, I guess it could make him more perfect in a way to have a bunch of people worshipping and loving him… But if he’s really perfect he wouldn’t need to create anything in the first place, right?

Edit:

I don’t see what this has to do with anything either. Weather is very complicated and much harder to figure out, especially with global warming (or the constant changing of the planet, or whatever you want to believe). In space, if there’s a meteor flying around, it’s just some math to figure out where it’s going to go based on gravity and momentum and such things. I heard it was coming dangerously close to us in 2011 anyway.

60

hmmm, you may be onto something there… but still we couldn’t go long enough as to 100years from now, didn’t you see that short vider on which Stephen Hawking asked the question, ‘How will the human race survive over the next 100 years, I do not know the answer, but i am asking this to get people to think’

the human race does not listen! You are told to not pollute so that we can preserve our world… what do some do? Immagrints of mexico cross the border and trash it, people in LA or somewhere else are throwing garbage in the oceans throwing stuff here and there…

instead of buying an electric car or using Solar Cells you use Gas-Fuled automobiles… this did not take 2000 years in the making, this took at least 100 years in the making! The ozone layer did not start to get weak until cars began being manufactured, this with 6billion people aroudn the world, and an estimated 5billion people having cars the world is sure to experience Global Warming, or just Mass Radiation in no less than 60years from now…

that is all I can say about Human Survival in global threats for now